good post. however, i think you forgot to touch on an even bigger sin TwoSet has committed: they’re unfunny :p
i’m only half, maybe 3/4ths-joking, imho there’s actually some merit to stereotypes in comedy, even racist/classist ones, but only if you’re also making some sort of commentary or adding some sort of nuance, since stereotypes are inherently reductive and you’re fighting against it by doing so. like i stg every time some right-wing snowflake goes “what has america become you can’t make jokes anymore 😡😡😡” the “joke” in question is the same bland punchline like “haha asian eyes small” or sth over and over again.
And honestly, i can sort of understand why the stereotype of the prodigy exists; i feel like it’s a form of copium from twoset, hell, classical musicians as a whole. prodigies are *frustrating* to encounter, because it feels like you’ve wasted most of your life when someone can do what you can do in such a short amount of time. but the fatal flaw is that our reaction shouldn’t be this form of copium, but to be impressed and *move on.* we’re so greedy and overly competitive, with such crab-in-a-bucket mentality that we can’t seem to help other flourish because it’s too damaging for our egos.
i think another big issue is that twoset forgets their target audience is like middle schoolers and high schoolers, who are usually more impressionable and more likely to take things at face value, although tbh that probably applies to the general public as well. and i think that’s why i also find this post quite a bit frustrating as well; as an asian, why shouldn’t i be able to make fun of myself? why should i have to shut up and forgo such a potentially unifying in-joke? and it’s because we so often forget that the other people we make this kind of joke to might not understand that it’s ironic, instead taking it literally and internalizing it.
Jul 10, 2022·edited Jul 10, 2022Liked by Andrew Wu
Thank you for this article. I admire two sets' ability to monetize their talent but as a first generation immigrant from Asia, I also find their messages/appeals troubling.
I don't think they try to propagate racism intentionally but they might have internalized the racism they experienced and found a way to channel it to make money. Their target audience is the general public and in order to survive and entertain the public for a living, they need to appeal to the taste of the mess, which is filled with subtle racism and classism.
This does not just happen to twoset or Asians. Many groups internalize the prejudice their society throw at them. It is more comfortable, at least in the short term, to conform to the prejudice than to stand up against it. There are many Caucasian women in their 30s talk like a teenager, projecting a powerless, confused, need to be directed sense.
I wish twosets are doing it intentionally. Their awareness of their intention doesn't make a difference to their audience. But they will feel better about themselves knowing they are using the prejudice against them to make money, to take care of themselves financially. The racial prejudice is so pervasive and unconscious, and it is hard or even unwise to challenge the status quo. Maybe once they have enough money and feel secure enough, they will have courage to discover their distaste and decide to do something else with their time and talent.
Hey thanks for making this post! This wasn't a topic I'd considered at all before but it's definitely got me thinking now.
First, I have to say I think you make some convincing points here, and that I would actually in theory agree with most of your argument, but in practice I think the situation is less extreme than how you describe it here. I can't deny that young Asian classical musicians already have many stereotypes associated with them. My non-musician friends have (jokingly, of course) called me a "nerd" when I disappear for a few hours to practice, or bring up classical music in whatever other context. Does it annoy me? A bit, sure, but only because that judgement is based on wrong assumptions (e.g. the assumption that my parents forced me to play as a kid, and that I don't love it and do it because I "have to"). I personally try, however, to not mind too much how other people -- Asian or not, musician or not -- view me as an individual, or classical musicians as a whole. Their perception is difficult for me to change, and my (complicated, as you've also said) relationship with music is not something I want to or need to make clear to them. My sense of individuality, at least as a musician, is solid enough in this respect that I don't think it can be worn away by external sources.
I also want to respond to your point on Twoset promoting classism, a phenomenon which I agree exists with respect to classical music: of course high barrier to entry, time- and resource-intensive to study, generally inaccessible etc. --> people who do classical music think it is (and they are) better than other genres of music (and other people). However, I actually think that Twoset has done a great job in making classical music *less* classist by making it more accessible to the general public through means of funny, non-technical / non-specialized, relatable content. I have several non-musician friends who said they've been able to learn more about classical music by watching Twoset, which I think is a great outcome in and of itself. As for the specific rap vs. classical music video you linked, I agree that it is quite tasteless in the way they basically dismiss the possibility of rap and other genres of music being "good" or holding a candle to classical music**. I'm rarely offended by comedy entertainment or parody/meme content, but that definitely was a bit much -- so I understand why you, or other viewers, would perceive this video or their other content as cheap or crude.
My conclusion is that when it comes to entertainment media, you can ask 100 different viewers about their perception of it, and you'll get 100 different answers. Personally I have never felt offended or de-individualized by Twoset's content, but this is because I view their content solely as a form of entertainment and comedy, and their channel as a place to find community among Asian classical musicians -- and not as a form of social commentary or anything like that. Of course we can debate whether or not this is a good mindset to have when consuming media, but that's a whole other discussion.
--
** On a side note, I used to think this way as well, thanks to a lifetime of institutionalized, traditional classical music training, but lately have learned to appreciate a wide variety of music and actively try to seek out music that I wouldn't usually listen to. I can say that this has not been an easy process, so I understand that the ingrained "classical music is superior" mindset is really difficult for a lot of musicians to change. I'm not excusing this -- I think people should be open to trying unfamiliar things -- but just offering my perspective.
"in theory agree with most of your argument, but in practice I think the situation is less extreme than how you describe it here" --> i'm not sure how extreme you think i'm describing it, but i do think that it's certainly true that a lot of twoset fans are relatively young and impressionable and have suspect / problematic views regarding non-classical music, and that twoset often does a great job of reinforcing those views.
for example: a comment on twoset's classical vs pop video reads "This just confirmed how repetitive pop music is." that comment has 4.3k upvotes. firstly, i suspect that commenter knows jack shit about classical music, because fugues are literally based on repeating the same thing over and over again, sonata form has an exposition repeat and the recapitulation often mirrors the exposition, just with no key change ... moreover obviously it shows a great misunderstanding of what gives music value (which has nothing to do with complexity.) so the commenter doesn't know anything, and 4.3k other twoset fans either know nothing, or can't be persuaded to use their brains because twoset has laid out for them that pop music is supposedly dumb and repetitive.
regarding the racism part of the issue, and whether it's more or less of an issue than i've made it out to be: i will just quote a friend on this, because i think i've already talked about what i feel
"i really dislike the way twoset caricaturize their own ethnicity’s relationship w classical music and turn it into a constant joke[.] it feels self hating and v counterproductive!!"
self-hating and counterproductive is exactly how i would describe it. if you're interested at all about shattering stupid stereotypes like "asians are child prodigy musicians who only practice because their parents make them do it" why the hell would you create such an explicitly racially-coded character who supposedly practices forty hours a day?
"However, I actually think that Twoset has done a great job in making classical music *less* classist by making it more accessible to the general public through means of funny, non-technical / non-specialized, relatable content."
i cannot disagree with this -- it's true that twoset has done good things for the classical music community and people interested in the classical music community.
"My conclusion is that when it comes to entertainment media, you can ask 100 different viewers about their perception of it, and you'll get 100 different answers."
i mean okay this is r/technicallythetruth but also r/enlightenedcentrism no? like yes you will obviously get a whole host of different reactions to twoset's content, but i think it's not really about the *reactions* per se -- i think it's about how kids' and teenagers' attitudes towards race, towards non-classical music are impacted by these videos they're watching.
"i really dislike the way twoset caricaturize their own ethnicity’s relationship w classical music and turn it into a constant joke[.] it feels self hating and v counterproductive!!"
I think any kind of humor is always eventually going to hit this wall. Comedy can be toxic (the whole Dave Chappelle Netflix anti-trans B.S. for example) but I also feel like any time anyone is making fun of themselves or their own "culture," someone out there is going to have their internalized self-hate triggered. Brett and Eddy are pretty clearly just trying to be their authentic selves. It's why they broke out of soul-crushing orchestra jobs and started a YouTube channel in the first place. As trained classical musicians, being snobs about other genres (and violas) comes with the territory so I accept that as part of the package. That's been beaten into them. Also beaten into them is all the Asian stereotypes they've had to live with all their lives (and you and me as well Andrew). Their way of dealing with it is to make fun of it. Not everyone, Asian or not, is going to find it funny, and some Asian diaspora folks who have been traumatized are going to be sensitive about it. Just because it brings up someone's own self-hate doesn't mean TwoSet hate themselves, nor does it mean they are trying to stir up or promulgate self-hate. Your friend I quoted above has valid feelings! But those feelings are ultimately for your friend to deal with, not to blame on the comedian(s) who made the joke.
This same debate goes on about Key & Peele whose shtick is mostly infinite permutations on black American stereotypes. Handwringing about whether their humor is successful because it caters to a white elite and accusing any black person who thinks they're funny of perpetuating self-hate. Audiences, both black and white, have shrugged off the critics because... they just think K&P are funny. They've voted with their dollars/views/subscriptions. I think it's much the same with TwoSet. They're a comedy duo making a joke out of their lives. That's always going to make some folks shout "They're making a joke out of MY life and that makes me feel like a joke!" That doesn't mean they're responsible for how you feel.
I guess it boils down to the old saw about racism and inequality, which is that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Where we differ in our views is that you think that TwoSet is part of the problem, and I don't. We have to have the freedom to make fun of ourselves or we're perpetuating our own oppression. I appreciate your criticism, but ultimately I have to disagree.
I do think this is dubious though — “That doesn't mean they're responsible for how you feel.” Obviously I agree with the actual *content* of the phrase, but now more than ever it seems disingenuous to claim that this is what the actual criticism is about; for example if you go to r/lingling40hrs some of the top / most controversial posts in the past year relate to how TwoSet’s actions have *actually affected* violists — kids who play viola getting bullied, viola teachers losing students as a result. And for each of those there’s another story about an Asian “prodigy” being annoyed that they’ve once again been stuffed into a box. It’s pretty telling to me — as a semi-decent young-ish musician — that many of my most talented musician friends immediately understood my perspective on this issue and talked to me about the piece: we tend to be misunderstood by classmates and friends, if not aggressively told that “you’re only good at [x] because you’re Asian!” (where [x] might be math, physics, classical music, who the hell knows.)
so yeah — perhaps I just come from a different perspective on it /shrug but it’s good to see your comment!
I think as Americans and diaspora folks, it's also hard for us to take into account how different things look and feel to someone who grew up in Taiwan as part of the majority culture. Eddy and Brett have definitely experienced anti-Asian racism while living in Australia, but I honestly don't think it hits them quite the same way as it would us, when their formative years were in a place where they weren't a marginalized minority. A lot of my family is not in the States, or only came here as adults, and their perspective on what's "offensive stereotyping" is drastically different from mine and the cousins of my generation who were born in the US. I know I'm a lot more sensitive than they are. I used to like to think it was because I was more "enlightened and educated" about racial inequality ("woke"), but as time goes on, I'm starting to question that. Their perspective is different and I try to remember that. It's hard to break out of my American-centric perspective, but I think it's necessary to try when I'm critiquing or engaging with media or content that comes from that side of the world. This doesn't *excuse* bad behavior or problematic elements in media of course, whether that's sexism in anime or TwoSet being insensitive or what have you, but I don't know if we can ever really see it with "non-marginalized" eyes. I try, though.
entirely reasonable! (this makes sense to me esp. because I attended a pretty traditional mostly-white Episcopalian private school — now *that* was a time …)
Hello, thanks for the post. As an Asian who is a (bad) classical pianist, I agree that a lot of TwoSetViolin's Ling Ling humor is false, tasteless racism that I don't personally find funny. You make a good point that their caricatures lump classical Asian musicians together and eliminate a sense of difference/identity among them.
However, I don't think it is fair to criticize TwoSetViolin when this can easily be applied to other aspects of today's society. For example, a lot of the top hip-hop and rap songs today reference rappers and artists growing up in tough neighborhoods surrounded by violence (and sometimes even participating in these activities themselves), and since these musical genres are much more commercialized than classical music, racial stereotypes in these songs will perpetuate much faster than TwoSetViolin's parodies. I'd like to hear your explanation of what makes TwoSetViolin different (or worse) than mainstream artists.
Thanks for reading and commenting! I guess I have a few things to say:
- I feel qualified to talk about TwoSet, as a classical musician; I feel a lot less qualified to talk about problematic elements of other music
- obviously other types of music have overtly problematic elements (homophobic slurs, general misogyny)
- From my experience listening to hip-hop and rap I generally feel as if artists speak their own stories — they talk about their own experiences. (Maybe I just haven’t listened to enough?) I certainly wouldn’t criticize this as stereotyping or an inaccurate portrayal if they’re just, you know, giving their own stories about themselves (which is not what twoset does)
Why this article is absolutely S A C R I L E G I O U S dog water sjw bullshit which gave me EMOTIONAL DAMAGE (written by a Ling Ling wannabe)
1. The Ling Ling meme isn't racist cuz Brett and Eddy (and most of their fanbase) is Asian. It's a satirical meme of Asians create by Asians for Asians. ASIAN CONSTITUTION GO BRRRR...
2. ur point abt how "Ling Ling" removes identity.....who tf cares being called Ling Ling is not an insult it's the ultimate honor and wet dream of any Ling Ling wannabe. Also, I'm sure what those prodigies say abt loving violin is true, bcuz of.....Stockholm syndrome!! No 5-year old WILLINGLY picks up the violin. Their tiger parents force them to, then they become trapped by violin, hate it, then learn to love it. trust me, I went through the same thing with piano (I started at age 4, currently 13, used to hate piano but around age 11 started loving it.)
3. so we're perceived as a bloc. great! who asked? literally everyone and their piano teacher is perceived through group identity....blame idpol nonsense for that
4. The stereotype of "Asians are good at math" != the stereotype of "Asians are followers." The second one is some racist BS. The first one is a compliment
5. Kids are irrelevant. You're not "uNIqUe" or "sPeCIaL," ur just another [insert race],[insert gender], [insert random stereotype]
6. Adam Neely is a good YouTuber normally, but sometimes he smokes some crack and becomes a full on Emily sjw karen
7. Rap "music" is absolute retarded dog water cringe-ass emotional damage-inducing kindergarten music class level ghetto druggie trash
8. That disclaimer might as well had said "Ministry of Truth approved" literally 1984 with u sjw types.
9. their avg viewer knows it's all a joke....classical musicians are 1000 IQ bigbrain smortasses.
10. this sounds like something written by a white person
A. If there fact that Ling Ling plays “40 hrs per day” doesn’t prove the humour element of the joke, you really shouldn’t listen to anything remotely comical, save yourself the offence.
B. I’m not Asian and my parents forced me to practise piano every day since I was 4 (when I initially begged to learn lol) I was not very good as I didn’t really practise, if someone looked at my piano skills and called me a Ling Ling I’d be over the moon.
C. I grew up in a working class suburb, with working class mates and I only play and listen to classical music, my rich mates all listen to rap and pop so there goes your classism theory.
D. Rap is not music.
E. There are very few genres outside of classical music that are even remotely musical, most are simply a collection of random sounds.
They are literally Asian idiot. And also, classical music is CLEARLY superior to ALL pop music. Not saying pop musics bad just saying classical music is BETTER BY LEAGUES. YOU ARE A DISGRACE, sacrilegious man
Hi Andrew, thanks for posting this. I just skimmed your blog, and you're lucky to be where you are.
Anyway, I've been a fan of TwoSet for the past couple of years. I need to post some long tirade about them too, lol, which is how I came across your article. I kind of skimmed it, but I feel I understand the gist of what you're saying, and it's similar to what some other people have written about them.
I know how Asians are terribly stereotyped in the West, and I get it every day, too. I don't think what TwoSet doing is harmful overall. I feel bad for TwoSet, actually, because it's clear that Brett is bullied all the time. If you read the YouTube comments, they're full of people (maybe non-fans) putting down Brett and throwing him into the box of stereotypes - scared, meek, and ultra-conservative. They're singling him out for that, when he's no more of that than anything else.
Getting deep into TwoSet and watching many of their videos is a great lesson in how Asians are incorrectly seen as much more meek and awkward than non-Asians, even if the Asian is showing the opposite over time.
I admire TwoSet a great deal. It's not everyday people get to be famous, mid-level YouTubers with almost 4 million fans now. They're probably millionaires, though their fans have never brought that up. Their old videos are better. They've been around since '14, so it's been 8 years now! They always refer to previous videos as inside jokes, so it helps to watch a lot of their videos over time, and follow along with fans' comments and content. TwoSet's earlier videos were a bit raunchy but hilarious, and they show their true colors. In '17, they did the most huge and gutsy thing - they travelled around the world, busking and sleeping on the streets trying to make $50k! It was their World Tour, and they crowdfunded it. In '16 they quit their jobs with respected orchestras (Brett with Sydney, Eddy with Queensland) to do TwoSet full time!
I know maybe you're very high-end and accomplished, but I think even their previous life before TwoSet full time was very impressive. They made it all the way to a music conservatory and won many competitions. Brett was concertmaster at their uni's orchestra, and then he made it as a fellow in SSO, and then probably a regular violinist there. Eddy's was something similar. I haven't read much of your blog yet, but maybe you exceed them in piano, etc. Your school is certainly way more elite than theirs, but I suppose they were just content to go to a music conservatory in their hometown, Brisbane. I have a feeling they'd be able to get into a top university in the US if they wanted to. But I digress! I can discuss TwoSet and Asian ANYTHING to death with anyone!
I think TwoSet might be doing a bit of good, but maybe not much overall. I feel they've slightly benefited from the rise of kpop and Korean/Japanese pop culture. Some fans/comments are recognizing them as being the opposite of their stereotypes. I think TwoSet is aware that Brett gets stereotyped as backwards, awkward, and uncreative (despite their channel being the most creative and bold ever). So in the past year or so, they had "competitions" with Brett vs. Eddy that showed Brett was super creative, quirky, and out of the box! In the music composition videos, Eddy's was pleasant and more conventional, while Brett composed the most awesome, crazy, out of the box, catchy music! And in the painting video, Eddy's was beautifully done and conventional, as I expected, while Brett's was this awesome, bright, crazy painting!
I know this isn't exactly what you wrote about, but this message is important, too.
Brett and Eddy are Taiwanese Australians who immigrated as kids (1.5 gen). Australia doesn't have as much of that Asian American identity, awareness, and advocacy. TwoSet aren't Fung Bros, who seemed to want to advocate for Asians from the beginning. This newer generation of Asian YouTubers like Steven He and Uncle Roger seem fine with "advertising" the most basic and horrible Asian stereotypes from the very beginning, and they make them front and center of their comedy channels. Steven is also 1.5, and he grew up in Ireland. There, I doubt they have much of Asian Americans' sense of identity and advocacy, too. And Uncle Roger didn't seem to immigrate to the West until college at Northwestern, and he grew up in Malaysia.
I REALLY love TwoSet and support them 100%. I think they're a net win for Asians in the West by just being there. Their fans think they're attractive, and that's doing something for Asian men, who are often seen as unattractive and undesirable in the West. And they show the world (at least to some people) that Asians can be bold, innovative, super funny, brilliant, relatable, and world changing. They've been changing the face of classical and making it cool, fun, and relevant to the new generation.
I read your whole article, and while I see what you're trying to say, most people don't mind. TwoSet isn't being racist, in my opinion, but instead making a joke about Asian people playing violin. I think you're reading way too much into this.
Oh wait, and under some further investigation of the video, it wasn't even posted by Adam Neely. It was under a fan account, so I'm not sure I can trust your opinion. Especially with how you don't capitalize your titles and seemingly have only watched one video of TwoSet's.
dude, it’s clearly Adam Neely talking in the video. I don’t know what you need to convince you that it’s him talking. it also should be more than clear that I’ve watched more than one twoset video in my life, and I think you’d know that if you’d read the piece a bit more carefully.
otherwise thanks for leaving three comments! It’ll improve the SEO on the piece and hopefully more people will get to see it :)
good post. however, i think you forgot to touch on an even bigger sin TwoSet has committed: they’re unfunny :p
i’m only half, maybe 3/4ths-joking, imho there’s actually some merit to stereotypes in comedy, even racist/classist ones, but only if you’re also making some sort of commentary or adding some sort of nuance, since stereotypes are inherently reductive and you’re fighting against it by doing so. like i stg every time some right-wing snowflake goes “what has america become you can’t make jokes anymore 😡😡😡” the “joke” in question is the same bland punchline like “haha asian eyes small” or sth over and over again.
And honestly, i can sort of understand why the stereotype of the prodigy exists; i feel like it’s a form of copium from twoset, hell, classical musicians as a whole. prodigies are *frustrating* to encounter, because it feels like you’ve wasted most of your life when someone can do what you can do in such a short amount of time. but the fatal flaw is that our reaction shouldn’t be this form of copium, but to be impressed and *move on.* we’re so greedy and overly competitive, with such crab-in-a-bucket mentality that we can’t seem to help other flourish because it’s too damaging for our egos.
i think another big issue is that twoset forgets their target audience is like middle schoolers and high schoolers, who are usually more impressionable and more likely to take things at face value, although tbh that probably applies to the general public as well. and i think that’s why i also find this post quite a bit frustrating as well; as an asian, why shouldn’t i be able to make fun of myself? why should i have to shut up and forgo such a potentially unifying in-joke? and it’s because we so often forget that the other people we make this kind of joke to might not understand that it’s ironic, instead taking it literally and internalizing it.
anyway people suck lmao
goated comment and take
Thank you for this article. I admire two sets' ability to monetize their talent but as a first generation immigrant from Asia, I also find their messages/appeals troubling.
I don't think they try to propagate racism intentionally but they might have internalized the racism they experienced and found a way to channel it to make money. Their target audience is the general public and in order to survive and entertain the public for a living, they need to appeal to the taste of the mess, which is filled with subtle racism and classism.
This does not just happen to twoset or Asians. Many groups internalize the prejudice their society throw at them. It is more comfortable, at least in the short term, to conform to the prejudice than to stand up against it. There are many Caucasian women in their 30s talk like a teenager, projecting a powerless, confused, need to be directed sense.
I wish twosets are doing it intentionally. Their awareness of their intention doesn't make a difference to their audience. But they will feel better about themselves knowing they are using the prejudice against them to make money, to take care of themselves financially. The racial prejudice is so pervasive and unconscious, and it is hard or even unwise to challenge the status quo. Maybe once they have enough money and feel secure enough, they will have courage to discover their distaste and decide to do something else with their time and talent.
Hey thanks for making this post! This wasn't a topic I'd considered at all before but it's definitely got me thinking now.
First, I have to say I think you make some convincing points here, and that I would actually in theory agree with most of your argument, but in practice I think the situation is less extreme than how you describe it here. I can't deny that young Asian classical musicians already have many stereotypes associated with them. My non-musician friends have (jokingly, of course) called me a "nerd" when I disappear for a few hours to practice, or bring up classical music in whatever other context. Does it annoy me? A bit, sure, but only because that judgement is based on wrong assumptions (e.g. the assumption that my parents forced me to play as a kid, and that I don't love it and do it because I "have to"). I personally try, however, to not mind too much how other people -- Asian or not, musician or not -- view me as an individual, or classical musicians as a whole. Their perception is difficult for me to change, and my (complicated, as you've also said) relationship with music is not something I want to or need to make clear to them. My sense of individuality, at least as a musician, is solid enough in this respect that I don't think it can be worn away by external sources.
I also want to respond to your point on Twoset promoting classism, a phenomenon which I agree exists with respect to classical music: of course high barrier to entry, time- and resource-intensive to study, generally inaccessible etc. --> people who do classical music think it is (and they are) better than other genres of music (and other people). However, I actually think that Twoset has done a great job in making classical music *less* classist by making it more accessible to the general public through means of funny, non-technical / non-specialized, relatable content. I have several non-musician friends who said they've been able to learn more about classical music by watching Twoset, which I think is a great outcome in and of itself. As for the specific rap vs. classical music video you linked, I agree that it is quite tasteless in the way they basically dismiss the possibility of rap and other genres of music being "good" or holding a candle to classical music**. I'm rarely offended by comedy entertainment or parody/meme content, but that definitely was a bit much -- so I understand why you, or other viewers, would perceive this video or their other content as cheap or crude.
My conclusion is that when it comes to entertainment media, you can ask 100 different viewers about their perception of it, and you'll get 100 different answers. Personally I have never felt offended or de-individualized by Twoset's content, but this is because I view their content solely as a form of entertainment and comedy, and their channel as a place to find community among Asian classical musicians -- and not as a form of social commentary or anything like that. Of course we can debate whether or not this is a good mindset to have when consuming media, but that's a whole other discussion.
--
** On a side note, I used to think this way as well, thanks to a lifetime of institutionalized, traditional classical music training, but lately have learned to appreciate a wide variety of music and actively try to seek out music that I wouldn't usually listen to. I can say that this has not been an easy process, so I understand that the ingrained "classical music is superior" mindset is really difficult for a lot of musicians to change. I'm not excusing this -- I think people should be open to trying unfamiliar things -- but just offering my perspective.
thanks for your comment! a few things --
"in theory agree with most of your argument, but in practice I think the situation is less extreme than how you describe it here" --> i'm not sure how extreme you think i'm describing it, but i do think that it's certainly true that a lot of twoset fans are relatively young and impressionable and have suspect / problematic views regarding non-classical music, and that twoset often does a great job of reinforcing those views.
for example: a comment on twoset's classical vs pop video reads "This just confirmed how repetitive pop music is." that comment has 4.3k upvotes. firstly, i suspect that commenter knows jack shit about classical music, because fugues are literally based on repeating the same thing over and over again, sonata form has an exposition repeat and the recapitulation often mirrors the exposition, just with no key change ... moreover obviously it shows a great misunderstanding of what gives music value (which has nothing to do with complexity.) so the commenter doesn't know anything, and 4.3k other twoset fans either know nothing, or can't be persuaded to use their brains because twoset has laid out for them that pop music is supposedly dumb and repetitive.
regarding the racism part of the issue, and whether it's more or less of an issue than i've made it out to be: i will just quote a friend on this, because i think i've already talked about what i feel
"i really dislike the way twoset caricaturize their own ethnicity’s relationship w classical music and turn it into a constant joke[.] it feels self hating and v counterproductive!!"
self-hating and counterproductive is exactly how i would describe it. if you're interested at all about shattering stupid stereotypes like "asians are child prodigy musicians who only practice because their parents make them do it" why the hell would you create such an explicitly racially-coded character who supposedly practices forty hours a day?
"However, I actually think that Twoset has done a great job in making classical music *less* classist by making it more accessible to the general public through means of funny, non-technical / non-specialized, relatable content."
i cannot disagree with this -- it's true that twoset has done good things for the classical music community and people interested in the classical music community.
"My conclusion is that when it comes to entertainment media, you can ask 100 different viewers about their perception of it, and you'll get 100 different answers."
i mean okay this is r/technicallythetruth but also r/enlightenedcentrism no? like yes you will obviously get a whole host of different reactions to twoset's content, but i think it's not really about the *reactions* per se -- i think it's about how kids' and teenagers' attitudes towards race, towards non-classical music are impacted by these videos they're watching.
"i really dislike the way twoset caricaturize their own ethnicity’s relationship w classical music and turn it into a constant joke[.] it feels self hating and v counterproductive!!"
I think any kind of humor is always eventually going to hit this wall. Comedy can be toxic (the whole Dave Chappelle Netflix anti-trans B.S. for example) but I also feel like any time anyone is making fun of themselves or their own "culture," someone out there is going to have their internalized self-hate triggered. Brett and Eddy are pretty clearly just trying to be their authentic selves. It's why they broke out of soul-crushing orchestra jobs and started a YouTube channel in the first place. As trained classical musicians, being snobs about other genres (and violas) comes with the territory so I accept that as part of the package. That's been beaten into them. Also beaten into them is all the Asian stereotypes they've had to live with all their lives (and you and me as well Andrew). Their way of dealing with it is to make fun of it. Not everyone, Asian or not, is going to find it funny, and some Asian diaspora folks who have been traumatized are going to be sensitive about it. Just because it brings up someone's own self-hate doesn't mean TwoSet hate themselves, nor does it mean they are trying to stir up or promulgate self-hate. Your friend I quoted above has valid feelings! But those feelings are ultimately for your friend to deal with, not to blame on the comedian(s) who made the joke.
This same debate goes on about Key & Peele whose shtick is mostly infinite permutations on black American stereotypes. Handwringing about whether their humor is successful because it caters to a white elite and accusing any black person who thinks they're funny of perpetuating self-hate. Audiences, both black and white, have shrugged off the critics because... they just think K&P are funny. They've voted with their dollars/views/subscriptions. I think it's much the same with TwoSet. They're a comedy duo making a joke out of their lives. That's always going to make some folks shout "They're making a joke out of MY life and that makes me feel like a joke!" That doesn't mean they're responsible for how you feel.
I guess it boils down to the old saw about racism and inequality, which is that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Where we differ in our views is that you think that TwoSet is part of the problem, and I don't. We have to have the freedom to make fun of ourselves or we're perpetuating our own oppression. I appreciate your criticism, but ultimately I have to disagree.
fair enough! that’s a valid stance to take.
I do think this is dubious though — “That doesn't mean they're responsible for how you feel.” Obviously I agree with the actual *content* of the phrase, but now more than ever it seems disingenuous to claim that this is what the actual criticism is about; for example if you go to r/lingling40hrs some of the top / most controversial posts in the past year relate to how TwoSet’s actions have *actually affected* violists — kids who play viola getting bullied, viola teachers losing students as a result. And for each of those there’s another story about an Asian “prodigy” being annoyed that they’ve once again been stuffed into a box. It’s pretty telling to me — as a semi-decent young-ish musician — that many of my most talented musician friends immediately understood my perspective on this issue and talked to me about the piece: we tend to be misunderstood by classmates and friends, if not aggressively told that “you’re only good at [x] because you’re Asian!” (where [x] might be math, physics, classical music, who the hell knows.)
so yeah — perhaps I just come from a different perspective on it /shrug but it’s good to see your comment!
I think as Americans and diaspora folks, it's also hard for us to take into account how different things look and feel to someone who grew up in Taiwan as part of the majority culture. Eddy and Brett have definitely experienced anti-Asian racism while living in Australia, but I honestly don't think it hits them quite the same way as it would us, when their formative years were in a place where they weren't a marginalized minority. A lot of my family is not in the States, or only came here as adults, and their perspective on what's "offensive stereotyping" is drastically different from mine and the cousins of my generation who were born in the US. I know I'm a lot more sensitive than they are. I used to like to think it was because I was more "enlightened and educated" about racial inequality ("woke"), but as time goes on, I'm starting to question that. Their perspective is different and I try to remember that. It's hard to break out of my American-centric perspective, but I think it's necessary to try when I'm critiquing or engaging with media or content that comes from that side of the world. This doesn't *excuse* bad behavior or problematic elements in media of course, whether that's sexism in anime or TwoSet being insensitive or what have you, but I don't know if we can ever really see it with "non-marginalized" eyes. I try, though.
entirely reasonable! (this makes sense to me esp. because I attended a pretty traditional mostly-white Episcopalian private school — now *that* was a time …)
Hello, thanks for the post. As an Asian who is a (bad) classical pianist, I agree that a lot of TwoSetViolin's Ling Ling humor is false, tasteless racism that I don't personally find funny. You make a good point that their caricatures lump classical Asian musicians together and eliminate a sense of difference/identity among them.
However, I don't think it is fair to criticize TwoSetViolin when this can easily be applied to other aspects of today's society. For example, a lot of the top hip-hop and rap songs today reference rappers and artists growing up in tough neighborhoods surrounded by violence (and sometimes even participating in these activities themselves), and since these musical genres are much more commercialized than classical music, racial stereotypes in these songs will perpetuate much faster than TwoSetViolin's parodies. I'd like to hear your explanation of what makes TwoSetViolin different (or worse) than mainstream artists.
Thanks for reading and commenting! I guess I have a few things to say:
- I feel qualified to talk about TwoSet, as a classical musician; I feel a lot less qualified to talk about problematic elements of other music
- obviously other types of music have overtly problematic elements (homophobic slurs, general misogyny)
- From my experience listening to hip-hop and rap I generally feel as if artists speak their own stories — they talk about their own experiences. (Maybe I just haven’t listened to enough?) I certainly wouldn’t criticize this as stereotyping or an inaccurate portrayal if they’re just, you know, giving their own stories about themselves (which is not what twoset does)
"we always struggle with trying to be our own person"
yeah 😔
indeed :(
Andrew I’m your number one fan!
Why this article is absolutely S A C R I L E G I O U S dog water sjw bullshit which gave me EMOTIONAL DAMAGE (written by a Ling Ling wannabe)
1. The Ling Ling meme isn't racist cuz Brett and Eddy (and most of their fanbase) is Asian. It's a satirical meme of Asians create by Asians for Asians. ASIAN CONSTITUTION GO BRRRR...
2. ur point abt how "Ling Ling" removes identity.....who tf cares being called Ling Ling is not an insult it's the ultimate honor and wet dream of any Ling Ling wannabe. Also, I'm sure what those prodigies say abt loving violin is true, bcuz of.....Stockholm syndrome!! No 5-year old WILLINGLY picks up the violin. Their tiger parents force them to, then they become trapped by violin, hate it, then learn to love it. trust me, I went through the same thing with piano (I started at age 4, currently 13, used to hate piano but around age 11 started loving it.)
3. so we're perceived as a bloc. great! who asked? literally everyone and their piano teacher is perceived through group identity....blame idpol nonsense for that
4. The stereotype of "Asians are good at math" != the stereotype of "Asians are followers." The second one is some racist BS. The first one is a compliment
5. Kids are irrelevant. You're not "uNIqUe" or "sPeCIaL," ur just another [insert race],[insert gender], [insert random stereotype]
6. Adam Neely is a good YouTuber normally, but sometimes he smokes some crack and becomes a full on Emily sjw karen
7. Rap "music" is absolute retarded dog water cringe-ass emotional damage-inducing kindergarten music class level ghetto druggie trash
8. That disclaimer might as well had said "Ministry of Truth approved" literally 1984 with u sjw types.
9. their avg viewer knows it's all a joke....classical musicians are 1000 IQ bigbrain smortasses.
10. this sounds like something written by a white person
11. U DIDN'T PRACTICE 4O HOURS EVERYDAY
12. GO PRACTICE
13. NOW!!!!
69. time to Kung Pao ur chicken
ignore this it was a total shitpost I thought that was obvious from the style 😭
but ya I do agree with some of your points I'm literally a socialist now lol
thanks for pinning it I hope it generates laughs
u didnt practice....
I GON KUNG PAO U CHICKEN TONIGHT NO FOOD FOR U
Rap artists only practice 40 seconds a day
Rap artists only practice 40 seconds a day
A. If there fact that Ling Ling plays “40 hrs per day” doesn’t prove the humour element of the joke, you really shouldn’t listen to anything remotely comical, save yourself the offence.
B. I’m not Asian and my parents forced me to practise piano every day since I was 4 (when I initially begged to learn lol) I was not very good as I didn’t really practise, if someone looked at my piano skills and called me a Ling Ling I’d be over the moon.
C. I grew up in a working class suburb, with working class mates and I only play and listen to classical music, my rich mates all listen to rap and pop so there goes your classism theory.
D. Rap is not music.
E. There are very few genres outside of classical music that are even remotely musical, most are simply a collection of random sounds.
Does that mean other ethnicity-only sort of YT's are also racist, such as steven he?
insert “like pancakes hate waffles” tweet
They are literally Asian idiot. And also, classical music is CLEARLY superior to ALL pop music. Not saying pop musics bad just saying classical music is BETTER BY LEAGUES. YOU ARE A DISGRACE, sacrilegious man
yaaaa this one I was like pretty high into my redpill Andrew Tate anti-sjw shit sorry
Hi Andrew, thanks for posting this. I just skimmed your blog, and you're lucky to be where you are.
Anyway, I've been a fan of TwoSet for the past couple of years. I need to post some long tirade about them too, lol, which is how I came across your article. I kind of skimmed it, but I feel I understand the gist of what you're saying, and it's similar to what some other people have written about them.
I know how Asians are terribly stereotyped in the West, and I get it every day, too. I don't think what TwoSet doing is harmful overall. I feel bad for TwoSet, actually, because it's clear that Brett is bullied all the time. If you read the YouTube comments, they're full of people (maybe non-fans) putting down Brett and throwing him into the box of stereotypes - scared, meek, and ultra-conservative. They're singling him out for that, when he's no more of that than anything else.
Getting deep into TwoSet and watching many of their videos is a great lesson in how Asians are incorrectly seen as much more meek and awkward than non-Asians, even if the Asian is showing the opposite over time.
I admire TwoSet a great deal. It's not everyday people get to be famous, mid-level YouTubers with almost 4 million fans now. They're probably millionaires, though their fans have never brought that up. Their old videos are better. They've been around since '14, so it's been 8 years now! They always refer to previous videos as inside jokes, so it helps to watch a lot of their videos over time, and follow along with fans' comments and content. TwoSet's earlier videos were a bit raunchy but hilarious, and they show their true colors. In '17, they did the most huge and gutsy thing - they travelled around the world, busking and sleeping on the streets trying to make $50k! It was their World Tour, and they crowdfunded it. In '16 they quit their jobs with respected orchestras (Brett with Sydney, Eddy with Queensland) to do TwoSet full time!
I know maybe you're very high-end and accomplished, but I think even their previous life before TwoSet full time was very impressive. They made it all the way to a music conservatory and won many competitions. Brett was concertmaster at their uni's orchestra, and then he made it as a fellow in SSO, and then probably a regular violinist there. Eddy's was something similar. I haven't read much of your blog yet, but maybe you exceed them in piano, etc. Your school is certainly way more elite than theirs, but I suppose they were just content to go to a music conservatory in their hometown, Brisbane. I have a feeling they'd be able to get into a top university in the US if they wanted to. But I digress! I can discuss TwoSet and Asian ANYTHING to death with anyone!
I think TwoSet might be doing a bit of good, but maybe not much overall. I feel they've slightly benefited from the rise of kpop and Korean/Japanese pop culture. Some fans/comments are recognizing them as being the opposite of their stereotypes. I think TwoSet is aware that Brett gets stereotyped as backwards, awkward, and uncreative (despite their channel being the most creative and bold ever). So in the past year or so, they had "competitions" with Brett vs. Eddy that showed Brett was super creative, quirky, and out of the box! In the music composition videos, Eddy's was pleasant and more conventional, while Brett composed the most awesome, crazy, out of the box, catchy music! And in the painting video, Eddy's was beautifully done and conventional, as I expected, while Brett's was this awesome, bright, crazy painting!
I know this isn't exactly what you wrote about, but this message is important, too.
Brett and Eddy are Taiwanese Australians who immigrated as kids (1.5 gen). Australia doesn't have as much of that Asian American identity, awareness, and advocacy. TwoSet aren't Fung Bros, who seemed to want to advocate for Asians from the beginning. This newer generation of Asian YouTubers like Steven He and Uncle Roger seem fine with "advertising" the most basic and horrible Asian stereotypes from the very beginning, and they make them front and center of their comedy channels. Steven is also 1.5, and he grew up in Ireland. There, I doubt they have much of Asian Americans' sense of identity and advocacy, too. And Uncle Roger didn't seem to immigrate to the West until college at Northwestern, and he grew up in Malaysia.
I REALLY love TwoSet and support them 100%. I think they're a net win for Asians in the West by just being there. Their fans think they're attractive, and that's doing something for Asian men, who are often seen as unattractive and undesirable in the West. And they show the world (at least to some people) that Asians can be bold, innovative, super funny, brilliant, relatable, and world changing. They've been changing the face of classical and making it cool, fun, and relevant to the new generation.
you are apparently too into twoset for this to have had any effect on you, which is a bit unfortunate. but we move
I read your whole article, and while I see what you're trying to say, most people don't mind. TwoSet isn't being racist, in my opinion, but instead making a joke about Asian people playing violin. I think you're reading way too much into this.
Also, you cited a video that was made in 2018. Not really sure how an outdated source would help your rather weak argument...
Oh wait, and under some further investigation of the video, it wasn't even posted by Adam Neely. It was under a fan account, so I'm not sure I can trust your opinion. Especially with how you don't capitalize your titles and seemingly have only watched one video of TwoSet's.
dude, it’s clearly Adam Neely talking in the video. I don’t know what you need to convince you that it’s him talking. it also should be more than clear that I’ve watched more than one twoset video in my life, and I think you’d know that if you’d read the piece a bit more carefully.
otherwise thanks for leaving three comments! It’ll improve the SEO on the piece and hopefully more people will get to see it :)
I said it wasn't posted by him, I didn't say it wasn't him talking in the video.
if you insist …
here’s a link to him literally posting the video in a tweet of his (years after he made the video!), if you’re concerned that he doesn’t endorse what he said. https://mobile.twitter.com/its_adamneely/status/1363009995412037632?s=21
it’s unclear to me the relevance of whether he owns the account or not. it’s really the actual content of his argument that matters, no?